12g LC Smith Grade 5 SxS Sidelock Shotgun: Manufacturer: LC Smith Model: Grade 5 Serial Number: 200161 Ejectors: Yes Barrels: 30 inches Action: SE Triggers: Double Trigger Gauge: 12 Gauge Fore End: Splinter Butt Pad: 3/4 inch LOP: 13 7/8 inches Weight: 8 lbs. Price: $10,500
A.H. Fox CE Grade 12 Gauge Side-by-Side shotgun
A.H. Fox CE Grade 12 Gauge SxS Shotgun: Serial Number: 33907, Barrel Length: 30″, Gauge: 12 Gauge, Stock Dimensions: 1 1/2″C x 2 1/4″H LOP: 14 1/4″ Weight: 7 lbs 9 oz Chokes: M – F. Price: $8500
Winchester Model 21 20 Gauge 28″ Side-by-Side
Winchester Model 21 20 Gauge 28″ Side-by-Side: Winchester Model 21 20 Gauge with 28″ barrels in excellent condition. Gun appears to be all original with all matching serial #200XX’s. The gun has original style butt plate, solid rib, metal bead front sight, 2 3/4″ chamber, barrels marked Mod/Full, pistol grip, kidney style beavertail forearm, LOP 14″, high figure wood, auto safety, ejectors and barrel selector. Gun condition is excellent plus with minor wood handling marks, great metal blue, perfect checkering and screw heads. Gun locks up tight and shoots great with no mechanical issues. Price:$7,450
Pre-Owned Rizzini Round Body EL Field Over-Under Shotgun | 20GA 28″ | SN#: 95752
Pre-Owned Rizzini Round Body EL Field Over-Under Shotgun | 20GA 28″ | SN#: 95752: Gauge: 20GA Barrel Length: 28″ Barrel Weight: 1240g Chamber: 3″ Magnum Chokes: 5 Flush Screw Chokes Rib: 7mm – 5mm Tapered Solid Stock Dimensions Drop at Nose: 1 3/8″ Drop at Heel: 2 ¼” Cast: RH Length of Pull: 14 ½” Forend Style: Rounded Comb: Fixed Weight: 6lb 7.9oz Barrel(s): Excellent Condition: No signs of rust or pitting. Receiver: Excellent Condition: No scratches, dings or dents. All moving part in good working order. Forend: Excellent Condition: No marring of wood. Checkering in great shape. Stock: Excellent Condition: No marring of wood. Checkering in great shape. Price:$6,500
Parker – VHE, 16ga. SxS. 28″ Barrels Choked M/F
Parker – VHE, 16ga. SxS. 28″ Barrels Choked M/F: Pistol grip, dogs head buttplate, ejector gun, double triggers, splinter forend, 214,xxx serial number range, 2 9/16” chambers, #1 frame, 70% barrel blue, traces of case colors, original wood with normal handling marks. 6 lbs. 8 oz. 14 1/4” x 1 ½” x 2 5/8”. Price: $3,499
Lot 276c: Winchester 21 12 Ga Shotgun: Excellent condition with leather hard case, hard to find pre war mfg, 28″ f/m choke barrels, checkered walnut stock, double triggers, Serial # 1024
Lot 385: Webley & Scott Double 12 Ga Shotgun
Lot 385: Webley & Scott Double 12 Ga Shotgun: Excellent condition, England mfg, case hardened, 28″ barrels, double triggers, ejectors, checkered round knob walnut stock, checkered butt, Serial #140209
Lot 300a: Ithaca 4e 16 Ga Shotgun:
Lot 300a: Ithaca 4e 16 Ga Shotgun: Scarce model, excellent condition, mfg 1927, engraved, case hardened,28″ factory vent rib barrels, single trigger, ejectors, fancy walnut & fancy checkered stock, cocking indicators, serial # 447336
Lot 400a: Ah Fox Ce Grade 16 Ga Shotgun
Lot 400a: Ah Fox Ce Grade 16 Ga Shotgun: Scarce model, excellent condition,mfg 1925, case hardened, engraved, 28″ barrels, single trigger, ejectors, checkered round knob fancy walnut stock, Serial # 302328
From Turnbull Restorations: Metal restoration included light polishing, engraving was not re-cut (see photos); color case hardening of receiver, top lever and forend iron; charcoal bluing of trigger guard, safety, screws and pins.
Wood restoration included new buttstock from customer wood, new forend from customer wood, latch housing, ebony tip, and hand checkering per original.
A. Chapu ~ Stunning from pre-WWII Paris BEST quality Sidelocks
A. Chapu ~ Stunning from pre-WWII Paris BEST quality Sidelocks: Hammerless Sidelocks – This along with our number 3967 is a fabulous pair of Shotguns. Quality of a Boss, Purdey, or Holland Royal’s this pair is a joy to hold, fondle, and at a price much less than what the others would certainly cost you. BEST quality features include chopperlump barrels, double seared locks, bushed firing pins, and articulated front triggers. Featured in what I believe to be their original retailer’s trunk case these guns are in outstanding condition. The weight and choking combined with their original 2 3/4″ chambering make these guns an excellent choice for sporting clays or the hard dying Montana, Dakota\’s and eastern Oregon ringnecks. Price:$14,500
A.H. Fox CE 16 gauge SXS Philadelphia shotgun
A.H. Fox CE 16 gauge SXS Philadelphia shotgun: Fine example of an original Fox CE with beavertail forend. A gorgeously crafted American-made shotgun in spectacular condition. Serial Number: 303164. Ejectors: Yes. Condition: Excellent. Metal Condition: Excellent. Wood Condition: Excellent original finish shows little wear. Bore Condition: Mirror. Barrels: 28″. Barrel Type: Chromox Steel. Triggers: Double. Gauge: Sixteen Stock Comb: DOC: 1 3/8″, Stock Heel: DOH: 2 1/2″. Stock Cast: Off. Fore End: Beavertail. Butt Pad: Leather. LOP: 14.5. Finish: Hand-rubbed Oil. Sights: Single Steel Bead. Manufacture Date: 1931. Chokes: Left: Modified (.017), Right: Improved Cylinder (.006). Minimum Wall Thickness Left: .043″. Minimum Wall Thickness Right: .039″. Price:$15,500
CSMC RBL 28 ga 28 inch Deluxe wood English Stock, Auto Eject, Cased
CSMC RBL 28 ga 28 inch Deluxe wood English Stock, Auto Eject, Cased: RBL002862, Caliber/Gauge: 28 Ga., Barrel Length: 28 inch, Sights: Factory Original Bore: Excellent, Rib: Solid, Choke: Improved Modified/ Modfied, Chamber: 2 3/4 inches, Length of Pull: 14 3/4 inches, Drop Comb: 1 1/2 inches, Drop Heel: 2 1/4 inches, Weight: 5.52 lbs, Cast: Neutral, Finish: Factory Original, Grips/Stock: Factory Original Price: $4750
PRE-WAR 1930 FRIEDRICH HEYM 12GA. 26″ DELUXE 4A GRADE SIDE BY SIDE SHOTGUN
PRE-WAR 1930 FRIEDRICH HEYM 12GA. 26″ DELUXE 4A GRADE SIDE BY SIDE SHOTGUN: Serial number “60xx” and dated 11/30 (1930) on barrels. Raised solid ib engraved “Grade 4A Krupp Fluid Steel Barrels” so made for the American market. Barrels also engraved “Suhl, Germany” on left and ‘Fr. Wilh. Heym” on right. All the correct proofs on water table. Very old professionally reblued barrels(only barrels) choked improved cylinder and modified and chambered for 2 3/4″ shells. Markings still crisp. Mint brilliant bore with no dents or dings. Ejectors. Original splinter forend with horn tip, original checkering and no cracks, hairlines or wood losses(engraving superb including screw heads inside). Deluxe 4A case colored receiver with crisply heavy relief engraved game scenes(see photos) and most of the original case colors darkening to patina. Screws unturned. Cocking indicators. Boxlock with sideplates. Dbl triggers extending through 14 1/3″ length of pull over original basketweave horn buttplate with no losses(often chipped or worm eaten). Original buttstock with fabulous deluxe wood(match forend) having horn pistol grip cap and NO cracks, hairlines, or wood loss. Checkering original and very fine. Right hand cast. Lever at center and tight on face as would be expected with sideclips. Works perfectly. Heym still in business today. Very fine example of one of Germany’s greatest makers and never before been on the market. Weighs 6 lbs. Price:$3,850
ITHACA SKB 280 20GA
ITHACA SKB 280 20GA: These are rock solid guns! No issues. Ready for field, forest or range. A few hunting marks keep wood from being Excellent. Chambers: 3 IN, Ejectors: Yes, Condition: EXCELLENT, Metal Condition: EXCELLENT, Wood Condition: VERY GOOD, Bore Condition: BRIGHT CHROME LINED, Barrels: 25IN. Barrel Type: CHROME LINED, Triggers: SINGLE SELECTIVE, Gauge: 20GA, Stock Comb: 1 1/2IN, Stock Heel: 2 3/8 IN, Butt Pad: ORIGINAL, LOP: 14 1/4 REAR POSITION SINGLE TRIGGER, Weight: 6 LBS 2 OZ, Choke Left: MOD Choke Right: IMP/CYL. Price:$1675
Beautiful James Purdey 16ga Self Opener — 29″ 1908 gun
Beautiful James Purdey 16ga Self Opener — 29″ 1908 gun: Ic/Ic .006/.010 — 1908 Best quality and Cased with original trade label and charge card — 2 1/2 ” lightweight gun 5lbs 13oz — super engraving that still shows a considerable amount of original color — straight hand stock with excellent dimensions 14 1/4 1 1/2 x 2 3/16 to checked butt. A wonderful gun to carry afield. The heyday of Purdey production. .028 thous in both tubes. This little gun carries like a 28ga. Gun is in the Purdey log book as listed. 14 1/4″ x 1 1/2 ” x 2 3/16″ checkered butt. 5lbs 13oz. Price:$29,500
1926 AH FOX CE 20 Gauge, 28″ Chromox Fluid Compressed Steel bbls., 100% Original:
1926 AH FOX CE 20 Gauge, 28″ Chromox Fluid Compressed Steel bbls., 100% Original: SxS boxlock w/ Game scene engraved case hardened action, 28″ Chromox Fluid Compressed Steel bbls. w/ 2 1/2″ chambers, Filed concave rib w/ double ivory beads, Chokes: Right .621 / .009 / M & Left .623 / .021 / F, Double triggers, Automatic ejectors, Automatic safety, Well figured straight grip stock w/ original buttplate, Splinter forearm, Stock Dimensions: DC: 1 9/16″ x DH: 2 7/8″ x Cast: 3/8″ OFF at Heel x LOP: 14 3/4″, Weight: 5 lb. 13 oz., Condition: 100% Original unaltered condition, 99%+ Original Blue, case colors and stock finish, Made in USA circa 1926, Serial #202682. Price:$20,000.
WEBLEY & SCOTT DOUBLE RIFLE IN .250-3000 CALIBER IN IT’S ORIGINAL LEATHER CASE
WEBLEY & SCOTT DOUBLE RIFLE IN .250 3000 CALIBER IN IT’S ORIGINAL LEATHER CASE: .250-3000 Savage caliber, 28″ barrels with five-leaf express sight. Engraved and casehardened Anson and Deeley box lock receiver. Top lever, extractors, and double triggers. Checkered splinter forend and pistol grip buttstock with cheekpiece and leather pad. LOP: 14 1/4″. Weight: 8lbs 6oz. In beautiful original condition retaining all of the barrel blue, vivid case colors and excellent stock and checkering. Mint bores. In it’s original leather luggage case with canvas cover. Price:$18,500
CONNECTICUT SHOTGUN MFG CO RBL LAUNCH EDITION 20GA S/S SHOTGUN
CONNECTICUT SHOTGUN MFG CO RBL LAUNCH EDITION 20GA S/S SHOTGUN: CASE COLORED ACTION WITH SCROLL, 28″ BBLS, 2 3/4, MULTI CHOKES, STANDARD RIB, EJECTORS, SST, 3X WALNUT STOCK, PISTOL GRIP, SMALL BEAVERTAIL FOREND, LOP 14 3/8, 1 1/2, 2 3/8, 6LBS 9OZ, CASED WITH ALL ACCESSORIES, AS NEW! Price:$3,695
A & F – 1970 – F.lli. Rizzini – BLNE 20ga, 26″, 3″, IC / M
If you’re a Fox fan, these two SxSs are going to make you drool. One’s a 16g and the other’s a 12g. Both look like CEs, and they’re coming to auction this Friday, May 20, @ Cottone Auctions.
Fox considered the CE to be a high-grade gun. In 1931, retailers asked $100 for it — more than twice the price of Sterlingworth with ejectors and a little less than a Parker GHE. The same year, a sidelock W. & C. Scott Premier cost $1,000.
Today, CE grade Foxes like the ones you see here are very collectible — especially the 16g. Fox made very few of them, and to see two with this kind of original condition is a treat.
Here are two rare doubles that Cabela’s recently listed. CE-grade Fox shotguns are not easy to find — especially in 16 & 20 gauge. That being said, I think these two are priced very aggressively. Even though they appear to be in nice, original condition, $20,000 is a lot to for either one — especially the 16.
Here’s more about A.H. Fox C-grade shotguns from the Fox Collectors website”
FROM: “The FOX GUN” ( A.H. Fox “Wood Grain” Catalog A.H. Fox Gun Company, Philadelphia, Pa.)
A.H. Fox CE Grade SxS Shotgun ~ 16 GA
This is the grade that has made good everywhere. In every respect it is a high grade.
It’s beauty in looks and finish. No gun will stand up better to hard work. Its every detail is perfect. And at the price it is in a class absolutely by itself.
THE BARRELS are a high quality of Chromox Fluid Steel. They are guaranteed both for accurate shooting and great strength. THE STOCK is a choice selection of dark, curly Walnut. The grain is beautifully brought out in the hand rubbed oil finish. THE ENGRAVING is the work of an artist. It stands out clear and beautiful in design. THE CHECKERING is of fine diamond pattern on grip, panels and forend.
The regular “CE” Grade FOX is equipped with automatic ejector. We carry in stock with half or full pistol grip, but will be made to order at no extra charge with straight grip.
Ansley H. Fox’s started making “The Finest Gun in the World” under the A.H. Fox Gun Company name in 1905 and the C grade was one of the first models offered. In 1906, a C was a $100 shotgun. In 1927 when the one you see here was delivered, the price was up to $107.30. Here’s more about this gun from the seller:
A. H. FOX CE 12 GAUGE DOUBLE BARREL SHOTGUN: This is another Outstanding Original Collector Quality gun from my collection. I purchased it long ago from the original owner’s family but have misplaced their information. The gun comes with the ORIGINAL FOX HANG TAG. It has 28″ barrels with Right Bore at .730″ with .022″ constriction (Mod) and Left Bore at .729″ with .042″ constriction (Full). The barrels have twin Ivory Beads. Pistol Grip Stock with Splinter Fore end. LOP is 14 1/4″, DAH 2 3/4″ and DAC 1 5/8″. The gun weighs 7 pounds 3 ounces. The gun has 30% to 40% Case Color in exterior areas, full Case Color everywhere else. Bluing on barrels is 100%. Bluing on Trigger Guard is about 75%. The wood is perfect with no dents, scratches or cracks and has 100% Finish. The engraving is breath taking, clear and sharp. Price: $5,250
A. H. FOX CE 12 GAUGE DOUBLE BARREL SHOTGUNA. H. FOX CE 12 GAUGE DOUBLE BARREL SHOTGUNA. H. FOX CE 12 GAUGE DOUBLE BARREL SHOTGUNA. H. FOX CE 12 GAUGE DOUBLE BARREL SHOTGUNA. H. FOX CE 12 GAUGE DOUBLE BARREL SHOTGUN
Like I said in my first post, 20g CE-grade Fox shotguns are rare doubles — especially in this kind of condition. The 30″ barrels are also nice, and super hard to find in a small bore Philadelphia Fox.
This fantastic little side-by-side sold for $18,630 at James D. Julia Auctioneer’s October 1st & 2nd, 2012. Here’s the entire listing from the sale:
A.H. Fox CE 20 gauge double barrel shotgun
EXCEPTIONAL INVESTMENT QUALITY FOX CE SINGLE TRIGGER 20 GAUGE GAME GUN: SN 202627. (1926) Cal. 20 ga. 2-5/8″ Chambers. 30″ Bbls with concave, matted game rib, fitted with two ivory beads, is stamped “CHROMOX FLUID COMPRESSED STEEL” and “MADE BY A. H. FOX GUNS CO. PHILA. PA. U. S. A.” on tops. Breech ends of bbls are engraved with 1-5/8″ triangles of simple scroll. Bbl flats are stamped with grade, and SN. Bottoms of bbls are stamped with “3″. Case hardened small frame ejector action is fitted with automatic safety and Kautzky single selective trigger. Action is engraved with typical “C” grade birds in ovals surrounded by 60% coverage medium scroll. A setter is engraved in circle on bottom of action. “ANSLEY H. FOX” is engraved in arches over game scenes. Trigger guard bow is engraved with vacant scrolled riband. SN is at grip. Nicely streaked and lightly figured European walnut semi-pistol grip buttstock measures 13-1/2″ over original ribbed composition buttplate. Stock has standard point pattern checkering with beaded borders at grip and side panels. Matching splinter ejector forend has inset ebony tip and Fox Deeley type release. Bore diameter: left -.617, right -.615. Bore restrictions: left -.027, right -.027. Wall thickness: left -.030, right -.030. Drop at heel: 2″, drop at comb: 1-1/2″. Weight: 6 lbs. 1 oz, LOP 13-1/2″.
A.H. Fox CE 20 gauge double barrel shotgun
CONDITION: Exceptionally fine. Bbls retain 98% orig lustrous blue, with a few scattered minor marks. Action retains nearly all of its orig case hardening color, thinning slightly on bottom. Thumbpiece of top lever is silvered on left side. Forend latch retains most of its case color, silvered slightly overall. Trigger guard retains nearly all of its orig blue. Stocks are also untouched, with a few very minor marks, with the slightest of wear to the checkering of forend. Bores are excellent, bright and shiny throughout, with no visible imperfections. Action is tight. Ejectors are in time. Trigger works. An incredible, untouched, long bbl small bore Fox.
Graded, smallbore Foxes are special shotguns. While A.H. Fox did make a lot of doubles, the vast majority most were 12 gauges. When it comes to 16 gauges and 20 gauges, “The Most Perfectly Proportioned Small-Gauge Gun Ever Built,” the vast majority were Sterlingworths, the company’s entry level, field-grade model.
A.H. Fox CE 20 gauge double barrel shotgun
The first smallbore Fox shotgun – a 20 gauge CE #200,011 – left the factory on September 17, 1912. Fox’s graded guns ran As, Bs, Cs, Xs, Ds & Fs., and according to a Fox catalog from 1925 the C was “In every respect…a high grade. It’s beauty in looks and finish. No gun will stand up better to hard work. Its every detail is perfect. And at the price it is in a class absolutely by itself.” Fox made just 413 C-grades in 20 gauge, and the one you see here left the factory in 1926. While there’s no question that it’s a rare gun, what do you think about the finish on the barrels, action, and wood? Original, or refinished? Take a close look and let me know what you think. I’ll let you know the answer in the next couple days.
A.H. Fox CE 20 gauge double barrel shotgunA.H. Fox CE 20 gauge double barrel shotgunA.H. Fox CE 20 gauge double barrel shotgun
Fox’s C-grade double barrel shotguns have always seemed like a good balance between too little and too much finish. The grades about them (the DE, XE, & FEs) are bit too done up for my taste, while the Sterlingworths, AEs, & BEs can be plain.
The one you see here is a good example of what I mean. The engraving is just enough to keep things interesting without being gaudy, and the wood is appealing with screaming “FIGURE” and stealing the whole show. In their 1925 catalog, A.H. Fox has this say about their C-grade shotguns:
A.H. Fox CE Grade 12 gauge Double Barrel Shotgun
“This is the grade that has made good everywhere. In every respect it is a high grade. It’s beauty in looks and finish. No gun will stand up better to hard work. Its every detail is perfect. And at the price it is in a class absolutely by itself.
THE BARRELS are a high quality of Chromox Fluid Steel. They are guaranteed both for accurate shooting and great strength. THE STOCK is a choice selection of dark, curly Walnut. The grain is beautifully brought out in the hand rubbed oil finish. THE ENGRAVING is the work of an artist. It stands out clear and beautiful in design. THE CHECKERING is of fine diamond pattern on grip, panels and forend…”
Here’s more about this one from the seller:
A.H. Fox CE Grade 12 gauge Double Barrel Shotgun
A.H. Fox CE Grade 12 GA: 30″ bbls, 2 3/4″ chambers, Modified & Full, 14 3/8″ LOP, 7 3/4lbs. Action shows case color in protected areas and barrel blue remains at 90%. Bores are bright and excellent! Wood is free of cracks with light use marks and has been fitted with an aftermarket pad. Small chip is missing at top right corner behind reciever. Lockup is tight. Price: $3,999
Fox’s Cs were mid-grade shotguns, a little fancy and sort of affordable. Finding one in 20 gauge is not an easy feat, and I bet this one will well above the estimate. Here are the full details on this SxS from the auctioneer:
A.H. Fox CE Grade 20 GA Double Barrel Shotgun.
Lot 174: A.H. Fox CE Grade 20 GA Double Barrel Shotgun: Serial #: 202315. Manufactured date: 1910. Barrel length: 26″. Chamber length: 2-1/2″. Choke dimension: M & IC. Length of pull: 14″. Drop on the heel: 2-1/2″. Drop on the toe: 1-1/2″. Excellent shiny bores with a few frecklings of rust on barrels. Receiver shows trace of case coloring. Exceptional example of an “Ansley Fox” made in Philadelphia. Chromux fluid compressed steel. Barrels not factory length. Originality: 95%.
Condition (Fine). Estimate: $2,500-$4,000
The A.H. Fox & Company was one America’s most famous gunmakers. Today, their doubles are some of the most collectible side-by-sides out there.
Like other makers, Fox offered their guns in a range of grades, from the entry level Sterlingworths to their over-the-top FEs.
The shotgun you see here is a C grade — Fox’s middle-grade double — and it looks like it’s in decent original condition. It’s on Gunbroker.com now with no reserve.
If you like it, get on it soon. The auction ends on 6/1/2013 @ 6:10:00 PM ET. Demand for it is strong and it looks like it will go north of $4000.
12 gauge A.H. Fox CE Grade SxS, 32″ bbls
Here are the details on it from the seller:
12 gauge A.H. Fox CE Grade SxS, 32″ bbls: Factory card shows that S/N 26476 left the factory in the same current configuration as it is today. Barrels 32″ Full pistol grip Choked M&M when it left the factory Chokes today are .028 and .028 Weight 7lbs. 11 oz. Drop at heel 2 7/8″ LOP 14 1/8″ Ejectors Ivory front bead Bores are in very good condition. Wood is not cracked, only one small repair which can be seen in the picture of the forend, and a dent at the front of the comb. A fair amount of case coloring in the protected areas. I have personally hunted with this gun and it operates, ejects, and shoots flawlessly.
Here’s a quick alert on a couple double barrel shotguns I just came across. These guns are at Gunrunner Online Auctions and there are a few other nice side-by-side and over-unders there, too.
-Winchester Model 21 “Tournament Skeet”, 20 ga. side by side, 26″, mfg. 1936. Straight grip checkered stock with checkered butt. Single selective trigger. Ejectors.
UPDATE: The Fox brought $7580, the M21 $6990.
Winchester Model 21 Tournament Skeet grade double barrel shotgu
Here’s a side-by-side you don’t see every day. It’s a 20 gauge A.H. Fox CE double barrel shotgun and it’s being auctioned off at Little John’s on Wednesday, May 23. The C grade was Fox’s mid-grade gun. From one of their catalogs: “This is the grade that has made good everywhere. In every respect it is a high grade. It’s beauty in looks and finish. No gun will stand up better to hard work. Its every detail is perfect. And at the price it is in a class absolutely by itself.”
Fox introduced 16 & 20 gauge guns around 1911-1912 and the company called their new smallbores “The most perfectly proportioned small-gauge gun ever built.” A lot of Fox collectors would agree with this statement, and because Fox made so few graded 20 gauges, this CE is sure to attract a ton of interest. Add in it’s condition and the presence of the original hang tag and this side-by-side could each go for $10,000+.
Holy smokes! Check out this Fox CE 12 gauge double barrel shotgun (4 pictures below). It’s owner just posted this string about it in the forum on the Fox Collector’s Site.
This gun threw me when I first saw it. It was completed in 1912, so it’s almost 100 years old and it looks like it was made yesterday. Just look at all that color – 100% – and hardly any fading at all. And then there’s the amazing condition of the wood/checkering and the uniformity of the blueing on the barrels. There’ s almost no wear – anywhere. This old side-by-side has barely been used.
